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Question for Kman and Muddoctor
http://mudmotortalk.com/mmt_v2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12129		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  OwenDickeson [ Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Have yall ever thought about putting a 3/16ths bottom boat into production? A 1/8th inch bottom boat isnt alway enough for some people and the areas they run. Especially with a mud motor and the tendency to go over certain things instead of around them :) . I for one when I bought my first mudboat, a 16x48 PD boat with a 36 PD, and thought that the boat was virtually indestructable. I know that was dumb of me but I was 19, and thats what it said on the web site anyway. One of the lakes I run is so god damn full of stumps that it should be illegal :lol: . Needless to say 2 ducks seasons later and my boat ran like a turd cuz it was so hooked at the transom that there was atleast an 1" 1/2 difference between the bottom of the boat and the transom and all 3 of the cross braces were so crowned that you could put a straight edge on it and press down on one end and on the other end put your fist inbetween the brace and the straight edge. When it came time to get a new hull I called KP at prodrive and asked if they would build me a 3 piece hull with 3/16ths bottom and he said no initially. He called me back a few days later and told me that they would build it for me. But I also wanted to use 6 2x2s for the longitudinal runners and he said they couldnt do that because they wouldnt fit his jig for the boat. So I decided against PD building the boat because they couldnt brace it the way that I wanted. I contacted Brother Breaux and he built the hull exactly the way I wanted it and couldnt have been more satisfied, and I have since then had him build me another boat. PW, has the thought ever crossed your mind as your getting all these beat up boats in on trade that there just might be a market out there for a boat with a thicker hull? Kman, likewise. I would like to get your thoughts and opinions on this subject.

Thanks.
Author:  Kman [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
I think your're right acutally. I think that the hulls we build satisfy 90% of the public in that they will last through years of use in rough conditions. Then the flip side is that about 10% of the guys out there run in certain conditions that a "tougher" hull is needed. That leaves the question to the builder, "do I try to please everyone and offer this hull too? Or do I try to be most efficient to the masses?"

It's a tough one. When you are a small company and you don't have a backlog from hell, or you are trying to get every sale you possibly can, you build anything anyone wants. Period, "yes sir, we can do it" Once you get the reputation for building a fine boat, those orders keep coming, you get used to buidling something a certain way, i.e. patterns, becoming more efficient and business gets better. But with more orders comes, payroll for 28 employees, workers comp, liability insurance, new shops, new equipment to keep up with production, on and on. You are not one guy with 2 helpers making boats any more. And at some point, you have to decide if you would rather build these 10 boats in a week, or one custom boat in a week and a half. Cause ya can't do both!

Your idea, for us, would be totally custom. We build our boats from one solid piece of .125 aluminum and round the chines. (that horse has been beaten already, and I dont want to get into it here) But makeing JUST the bottom out of .190 would radically change our build process and probably wouldnt be a boat we would build DURING OUR BUSY SEASON. From January to march, we build project boats like that. However, there are guys out there (like the guy that built your boat) that SPECIALIZE in this type of hull. Instead of me trying to convince you (and let's dont forget, you already know better) that my boat is plenty strong enough for where you hunt and it wont dent, and all that bull, you are better off doing what you did. You sir, are a 10%er, and if I WERE charged with the challenge of building YOU a custom boat, I would do the following,

One piece round chine .190 hull.
Run 6 or 7 (depending on the width you select) longitudinal runners.
Use our tie-in bracing system to tie all longitudinal bracing together. (big factor in the hooks you got in your older PD boat)

That will hold ya. If it don't, nothing plausible will.

I know you didnt ask for a dissertation, but hopefully this info will help you.
Have a good one.
Author:  OwenDickeson [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Why does the 3/16ths hull have to take a week and a half compared to the 10 1/8th hulls you can build in a week? Why not just keep doing everything the same as you would a 1/8th hull (bracing and all) and just use 3/16ths aluminum for the hull? If its just a one piece hull, I don't see how switching to 3/16ths would make anything more difficult and take longer to build.
Author:  Kman [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
It wouldn't. Thats why I said "what I would do is..." See below that where I suggested exactly what you siad, a one piece .190 hull.
Doing it the way you first suggested, a 3 piece hull, WOULD change up things drastically for me.
Author:  OwenDickeson [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Right. Thanks Kent.
Author:  jus10inla [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
owen has discovered the world of flat bottom skiffs.. he will never convert to a round chine now... lol. jus sayin..
Author:  quackconsumer [ Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Author:  muddoctor [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Thanks for your question Owen. I agree with Kent on this one, there are some markets that the .190 hull would be best in, mostly in TX and Southern AR, I don't know what you guys manage to hit down there but for some reason it is tough on boats. We have thought of building .190 hulls but with every change comes a price, i.e. more wieght = slower boat. As Kent said, to go to a three piece hull increases build time and labor costs unless you are already "jigged" up for doing three piece hulls. There are other issues to consider as well. Most .190 hulls we see up here are made of 5052 which is much easier to bend, but it is softer and will dent easier then 5086, in fact I had a plate boat with a .190 5052 bottom at one time and it was no more durable then a .125 5086 hull. Then comes the issue of bending. 5086 will bend for a one piece hull like Gator Trax, PD and we make without cracking, however once you go thinker then .125 you run the risk of getting stress cracks in the bends. Can you bend a .190 hull 5086 hull, yes, but you are right at the limit of creating hidden fatigue in the metal. I have seen this first hand with some boats we worked with another company to bend a number of years ago up here and we were concerned about the prospect of having one peice hulls in .190 developing stress cracks down the road. Again, there is tooling out there that will do the job, but few folks who have presses big enough to do a 20' boat are going to invest in a new slip die to do a handful of boats.

So in short Owen, it can be done, but everytime a manufacturer departs from their standard for which they have set up maximum effiecency, their costs go up and a variety of issues can result from changing materials etc. It is not as easy as just making a thicker hull the way you make the .125 hull. Why can small builders do it and larger ones don't always seem to want to, it is simple, overhead. Larger builders like us and Gator Trax and the others have invested alot of time and money in setting up our factories to be as streamlines as possible, it is the only way you can do volume and still make money. The smaller guys have only minimal overhead to cover, so they can do this stuff and still make some money on the deal.

As Kent said, in the off season when things slow down the bigger companies will take on some of these project, we do each winter as well. If you are interested in having us build the type of boat you are suggesting, we would be more then happy to work something up and order the hull test bent and checked to make sure it is still sound, then proceed with building it they way be normally do (we do use 2x2 .190 tubing in our larger boats already, so that is nothing new for us).

I probably went into to much and made it sounds confusing, but building boats is not always as simple as it sounds, there are alot of variables to consider when you deviate from a proven design and all potential consequences need to be considered. We generally don't introduce anything new until we have built it for ourselves and run it at least one full season to evaluate its performance and soundness.

Thanks,

Paul Willging
Author:  HUNT4DEER [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
ill tell you this, its nice to see two boat builders agree, and talk on a subject w/o alot of downing one another, or any othe builders. it realy shows what your made of. if only the other compition (ie mm brands, parts, owners, etc.) on here could do the same.
Author:  BROOKS [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
I feel like I just learnt sumthin' from this thread !!! :D

Thanks fo the input fellas !!!
Author:  OwenDickeson [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Author:  muddoctor [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
That is correct Owen. Another issue is sheet size, to make a one peice hull you need a 96" sheet, easy to get in .125 5086, very hard to find without a large mill order in .190 5086. As was said, it can be done, we do two peice hulls all the time, but just as a three peice is more welding and labor, so is a two peice.

PW
Author:  Kman [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
We have been building one piece .190 5086 hulls for over 7 years. Never had anyone request that for a mud motor, but for all our outboards over 75 HP have them. It's not an issue. No stress cracks, works great. Could easily do it for a mud motor if you wanted to deal with the extra weight. It's about a $600 upcharge from standard pricing.
Author:  drake1 [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Building a 1950 as we speak that will have a 3/16" bottom and 1/8" sides. I am putting 8 2X2 stringers in the bottom. The rake will have 2X3/8" thick flatbar in it. I am also sticking 1/8" UHMW on the bottom. This boat is going to be used on some East Texas lakes that are full of stumps. Oh it will be powered by a Stage II Generac. :D
Author:  cb5331 [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
You stay outta my lakes with that tank mike! Is that for willett?
Author:  OwenDickeson [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Author:  drake1 [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
No picks yet but should have some in the weeks to come.
Author:  diceman [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Author:  50fps [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Author:  OwenDickeson [ Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Author:  duckhunter888 [ Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
It's production vs. custom fabrication. You are one or the other. I relate it to homebuilding after being in it for over 20 years. Production is setup on volume, efficiencies of producing more with less, and driving down costs to control your margins and profits including overhead. There is nothing wrong with production as most of what we use and consume on a daily basis comes from that mode of operating.

I have always owned a production boat and there is nothing wrong with it. I too asked the question and was told no. I will be crossing over to the custom hull market for my own reasons (we all have them). My intentions are my own and will be a direct result of my planning and design based on what I want. Yes, most production boat builders will accomodate the small changes (extra 12V's, ext decks, paint jobs, spot light kits, and many more accessories, but in the end it is production. IMO there is no perfect boat, and we all will contend with the positives and negatives of our rigs. At the point some us are and the experience we have gained running them, lends it to the ones who are discrimating in their desires and requjirements (whether it be a 3/16" bottom, unique bracing, catwalks, or a specific hull design) not offered by the production companies to take it upon themselves and enter a relationship to have a custom hull built to their exact specifications.

To be honest, working for a production homebuilder who intended to acoomodate every request ended up being a nightmare, and led to substandard results whether cost overruns, time delays, or just not meeting the Customer's expectation of what he thought he was to be getting. Changes are time and money regardless of the business. If you are setup to be production then get after it and make your business plan work. The custom builders have their segment as well, and they are the ones setup to accomodate the changes and the requests some of us now have.

IMO I don't think a company can be both and I respect the fact they are honest enough to acknowledge it.
Author:  fasscoonass [ Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
one thing i have seen in aluminum boats is a 1/8 bottom is lighter but 6 mnths down the road when it has a hook in the bottom that 65 lbs diff. to go with the 3/16 bottom is well worth it.
Author:  westwind [ Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
I think if you could run the stringers to the transom and tie them to the transom AND get the water out of the back of the boat a .125 boat would be fine. I know it will still hook but it couldnt be as bad.

I want both. 3/16 and stringers to the transom. Or how about a .125 boat with heavy plate at the rear only? Notch the stringers? Come on guys, you can improve the current design.
Author:  OwenDickeson [ Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Author:  Kman [ Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
he means that the stringers act as a dam, not letting water drain to the plug unless it's deep enough to go over the stringers. We have had to deal with that with huntdeck boats where the stringers go thru the false transom. We inserted pipe in them to allow water to drain thru, so it can be done.
Author:  OwenDickeson [ Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
If you tie the stingers into the actual transom the welds will just crack when you hit something hard enough.
Author:  POKER1 [ Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Most I have seen were notched on the bottom to allow water to run through. Mine are welded to the transom and have not cracked after 3 years.
Author:  OwenDickeson [ Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Author:  Joe M [ Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Author:  POKER1 [ Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Author:  POKER1 [ Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Author:  Joe M [ Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Author:  POKER1 [ Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Author:  Joe M [ Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
Author:  westwind [ Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for Kman and Muddoctor
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