(My first post here.)

My use in Interior Alaska is probably a bit different than what many of you use your mud motors/boats for.

My primary destination is 58 miles from the landing. Reliability is of key importance. I'm going to install either a Copperhead 18 hp , or a MudBuddy MiniHD 18 or 23 on my Scott Hudson Bay freighter canoe. Both motors use Vanguard V-twins. The link below is to a photobucket gallery of a local boat that shows what I'm talking about. That canoe is wearing a MudBuddy 18 MiniHD

http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h34 ... amenities/

The Copperhead is 30 # lighter than the MudBuddy. Does anyone know if the Copperhead is as reliable as the similar, but heavier MudBuddy MiniHD's? And are the 2 manufacturers producing motors of similar quality? From the pictures I've seen of both motors, the MB looks more rugged.

Opinions, please

You cant go wrong either way, though I'd sugest a real boat to put it on.

What lind of stuff are you going to be running in. Is their alot of rocks

The run involves a lot of shallow river with heavy grass and mud banks; further on, the river becomes narrow with high banks , cluttered with logs and underwater brush, even logjams. Most years we have to cut our way upstream with axe and chainsaw. Sometimes we use a rope come-a-long to go over a logjam or a beaver dam. Towards the end of the season, the water level drops steadily, and we have several areas that are only 8" - 12" deep with rock bottom ... a problem when we haul out our moose. Last year, we estimate our return leg load to be approximately 1600#, including 2 - 200 pounders, gear and meat. In the shallowest area, we got out of the canoe and walked the boat through. Our intent is to make a trail up the river through the tangle narrow enough so most hunters don't want to put in the hard work required to follow. In other words, we like to keep our moose honey-hole private and hard to reach. So the conditions, including water level, are varied and trying.

By the way, the Scott Hudson Bay canoe is excellent for the conditions we have here. It's very stable, has load capacity of 2000# and is economical to operate. Some of our river trips involve 300+ miles. The Hudson Bay is even a good saltwater boat, handling big water quite well. Several friends use their HBs for halibut fishing in Prince William Sound. At 21.5' and 250#, with a flat bottom and 3 heavy duty keels, they are a very good subsistence boat. They have been used throughout Canada and Alaska for the last 45 years.

That sounds like a good time up their.. Especially if it usally pays off hunting wise. I have only ran the Mud Buddy but if I where to buy one that Copperhead has had good reviews and seems like it wold do well with a load. I'm sure you know what that canoe will do and what it can hold up to. These motors will get u into and outta some nasty stuff just. You just want to make sure the hull of the boat will take some good hits. With a 18hp your probally not breaking any land speed record so its not like your hitting stumps doing 30 mph

fowl habit ...

Your right, no stumps at 30 mph. The Hudson Bay canoe, with it's long bottom floats very shallow ... with 2000# aboard, it still has 6" of freeboard. The appeal of the surface drive motors for Alaskans is purely utility ... in a wide variety of conditions. They're the 4WDs of boat motors. High speeds and play are not important. If I can go 20 mph with a big load, that's a plus. It's a long way back to the landing.

By the way, my favorite area up here, at least when water is liquid, is an area NW of Fairbanks called the Minto Flats. It's genuine wilderness. It's one of the premier waterfowl nesting sites in the North. And great duck hunting. Even a large population of Trumpeter Swans. When I spend September out there, I can almost feel like Daniel Boon ... except with a better rifle and a GPS.

Endgame, you have balls going 300 miles in one trip with a canoe and a MM. But with that much weight in that boat the 23 is really going to struggle. Therefore putting more strain on your motor, and decreasing engine life. With that kind of weight you need a large boat and probably duals to achieve any decent speed. I dont know about your budget, but have you considered running a straight mud hull? I know some of the guys up that way are running them. Last time i was in AK i was only on the kenai and talkeetna, but i didnt see any MM's, just inboard jets.

Barroll ...

Actually, these specialized freighter canoes are renowned for their ability to haul heavy loads with modest engines and excellent economy. The Scott Hudson Bay is a "displacement " boat, and is recommended for use with a 15 or 20 hp outboard - I have up to this point been using a 15 hp 2 stroke Yamaha - top speed with that motor has been approximately 20 mph, with a fuel usage of about 1 gallon per hour.

My friend who owns the tan Hudson Bay in the photobucket gallery has a MB MiniHD 18 horse on his, and gets 25 mph with a modest load. And burns, again, a gallon per hour.

Jet boats, IMHO, are ridiculous. They burn in the neighborhood of up to 6 gallons/hour. Kinda limits your range. And they really don't haul much of a load, by comparison. And, frankly, they never follow me and my hunting partner up the tangled, jumbled rivers. And when they get stuck, it's a real trial to unstick them. And they aren't worth a tinker's damn on salt water. The Hudson Bay, as big as it is only weighs 250# ... not much for a boat with that much capacity. They are made with a very heavy duty laminate, and with caution and annual touch-ups, they last a long time.

They're not play boats .... they are excellent homesteader boats for subsistence hunting, fishing with rods or nets, and bush travel. There are lots of jet boats up here, many air boats, but for my use neither suit my needs.

I have 2 other friends who have Scott HBs with MB 23 hp MiniHDs on them who have had exceptional service from that boat/motor combo ... it works. And they handle a load nicely.

My question has been Copperhead or MudBuddy Mini. Modest surface drive motors work well on our freighters, in our conditions. I'm curious if the Copperhead 18 is as durable and well built as the MB Mini 18/23?

Like I said Endgame you are going to know what that boat can and can't do. I have only ran the 23 MB it pushed a 16ft flat really nice was very durable and would carry 2 guys and some decoys pretty good. The drawback on that would be weight I think in a cooperhead you will see a very durable motor that wont sink the a$$ end of your canoe.

Endgame,
If the canoe performs well than by all means use it. It is a different world up there and you know what works and i dont. If you have friends with a MM on them and they work then you wont be risking your money hoping it works out. B/t a copperhead and a MB though i would go with the mini 23 with a clutch. Im sure the copperheads are great motors but i think MB has an advantage because of the clutch, and if you ever wanted to get a little more out of your motor there is a full line of aftermarket parts MB offers. However i think you will be very happy with both motors. Everyone has been very happy with the copperheads and have gotten great performance. I would recommend that you get as much Hp as you can put on that boat also. More hp on a stock motor will strain less on a heavy load and put less wear and tear on your motor.

The 18 and 23 are the same block, just different strokes so weight isn't a factor between the 2

For me, the advantage offered by the 18 hp Copperhead (135#) is a matter of the reputed 30# weight savings on the transom over the 166# MB MiniHD. Both manufacturers use the same Vanguard motor, which is an off-the-shelf item here in Fairbanks. I'm going out on the river tomorrow with a friend who has a MB MiniHD 23 on his Scott Hudson Bay. Should be an interesting trip.

We have been running Cooperhead here for over a year and a half, very few issues. I do think they push a bit better then the MB mini since they are a true surface drive and IMHO the prop running at the surface vs. all below water would be a plus in the conditions you described. The Cooperhead is less of a workout to drive vs. the mb with the prop submerged IMHO.

They can both break, they are belt driven, though we have not broken on yet. They are both grease lubed, so you will need to service often on a long trip. Regardless of which on you choose, be sure to get some spare belts, a spare prop, etc and learn how to fix it on the water. One nice thing with the cooperhead or the mini, two men can pull it off the boat and onto shore to replace something if need be. Changing a belt on either one will take you a few hours, but if you have the right tools, lube and sealants in the "oh chit" box, you can fix the unforseen breakdown and get back going pretty quickly (oh yah, be sure to bring a few extra bolts and nuts of all sizes so you have extra when drop that last one you need to put back in the water or weeds!).

From the way to describe the hulls you guys are running you should be able to get the same speeds you are getting with the 15hp ob with similar loads, so it might work very well for you.

PW

the 23 and 18 mb are true surface drives. thay advertise the 9 hp is not. as for the weight they , 18 and 23 hp, are the same block and the 23 is actually slightly lighter due to the larger bore causing to cyl's to be slightly thinner. i would do a 23 before the 18 due to the extra hp for the same weight.

i agree that either one would work fine for reliability key may be me if you need service and parts, which has the dealer closer to you. mud buddy and copperhead are both good, what it comes down to is the service and dealer imo

IMO I wouldn't go with the copperhead my friend has one and has nothing but trouble with the lower shaft and they can't seem to fix it. It works good for a little while and it blows the rear seals out. I would hate for you to be 50 miles out and have this happen I would just do more research on the durability of the fram and shaft rather than the engine

A friend, who has a large 20' freighter canoe, just came back from a 300 mile trip on the Yukon. His motor is a 12 hp Copperhead. Two spot welds on the drive shaft broke, but didn't compromise function, and a number of parts vibrated off. Apparently the motor was fiercely vibrating. He still advised me to get the 18 hp Copperhead. IMHO, Copperhead hasn't fully sorted out the 12 hp, yet. And the NEW 18 horse is on the same frame. My point ... May be a great motor once it's developed and de-bugged, but not yet. I ordered a MB Mini 23 last Monday. Supposed to be here (Fairbanks) by the end of August. I know 3 guys with MB Minis ... 1 - 18 and 2 - 23's. They have all been trouble free. Thanks for all the wisdom, guys.

good choice, you will be happy.

300 moles? Wayyyyyy

Miles? Wayyyyy

I joined this mud motor forum to address some dishonest materials posted here about Copperhead.

I am the guy who did the Yukon River trip with the first 12 hp Copperhead to make it's way to Alaska. I have NEVER met the forum member endgameAK, nor do I call him "friend". In fact, I have never met him or talked to him. I do although call him an acquaintance as that may be more appropriate as I've seen him on the Alaska Outdoor Forum under the username "Rick".

I never told him that parts rattled off my Copperhead, or that the vibration is fierce, or that spot welds on my motor broke because again, I've never talked to him. Any product development is private between Copperhead MFG and myself. Only one close friend of mine who I spend a substantial amount of time hunting and fishing with, has any idea about how the Copperhead has performed.

I trusted my Copperhead 12 hp to push me, my 100 lb. malamute, my pregnant fiance, 37 gallons of gas, and a ton of precious cargo to be delivered to friends who live remote. The total weight of my load, people, and cargo was in excess of 1700 lbs. We use the Yukon River as the highway, and continue up class ll-class-lll rivers. One particular section of whitewater strewn with boulders was a very hairy situation to trust a new motor that you've never used where I normally have a back up motor cached at the mouth of the smaller river in case I break down. The motor performed FLAWLESSLY. I never had a back up motor down river. Yes, a couple screws vibrated loose on the muffler shroud, big deal. That was LCT's issue, not Copperhead. What did I do? I simply put lockwashers and flat washers behing the screws.

The spot welds that cracked occurred from hitting hundreds of rocks and gravel bars on that trip. They weren't even a structural component of this motor. What did I do? I drove the motor 200 more miles without a hitch. After a certain section of whitewater, my son cried for a half hour. I felt bad, but I assured him daddy always picks the safest path.

My freezer is now full with caribou and salmon. It's enough meat for an entire year, and I did this with my Copperhead that is rip-roaring and ready for next season. The Hopkins prop took a beating, without a hitch. A file takes off the rough edges every so often. I have seen other props that broke on the cast markings as we hit rocks up here, not mud. That won't happen with a Hopkins prop.....I promise you.

The only way that this forum member made this dishonest post full of half truths, was that during my absence, he may have contacted my close friend who tried his best to explain things to him during my travels when he was deciding which motor to buy.

Gill and Betsy are wonderful folks who built a motor that kept a pregnant women, a 9 yr old boy, and myself safe, hundreds of miles from the closest road. Any type of product development will remain private between Copperhead and Me. With Gill and Betsy feeiling more like family than anything else, this is why I take offense to dishonest materials that don't represent their product, and their hard work.

Sincerely,
Michael
Yukon Freight Works Canoe Company.

mainer is correct. I am not his friend. Nor would I be. My only contact with him has been on the AOD - canoeing forum.

I asked for information on the comparative proven durability of the MudBuddy Minis and the Copperhead with the new frame 12 hp and 18 hp. I was told of his trip by his friend, and the glitches he had with the motor. Since my concern is durability, I'm grateful someone told me the truth. Mainer would not share that information with me and is certainly minimizing any problems. Apparently he has a personal or financial reason to push Copperhead as perfect, and I'm sure they're a fine unit. However, I asked about proven durability ... I am not interested in buying a motor that is unproven and still in development, no matter what mainer thinks. He has his own agenda.

I ordered and have used the MBmin23 on my canoe and am very pleased with my choice.

Mainer states, "Any type of product development will remain private between Copperhead and Me. " I guess his opinion is suspect and he reserves the privilege of the truth for his special friends. Everyone else get spin and a Copperhead advertisement.

My dishonesty, so called by mainer, is referring to him as a friend. That was an error. The rest appears to be correct.

Real men apologize upon being confronted about dishonesty; excuses and a quasi explanation doesn't compare.

My only "agenda" was being honest about a product that never failed and having you misrepresent that with here-say through my unknowing friend and formulating that response into MY WORDS for your own selfish desire to figure out which motor you wanted, and then crapping on somebody else's product based on here-say.

My other "agenda" is realizing how effective this motor will be to other Alaskans and other Freighter Canoeists, defending the reputation against someone who's never used their motors, and giving advice about the product to others on this forum against YOU who only has 13 hours behind a Surface Drive in the least demanding waters in Alaska.

This is the last thing I will say regarding this total lack morals.

mainer, not to butt in, but you confirmed the problems that endgame mentioned. i dont really understand why you got upset.

where else can you find two alaskans fighting about lawnmower engines on canoes on a south louisiana forum

Just a note ...

To my knowledge, the 12 hp Copperhead was put on the market Jan. 2011.
Mr. mainer, according to his postings @ AOD, began driving his own 12 hp Copperhead on a canoe, a smaller freighter, in mid-May 2011, and installed that motor on his own larger freighter canoe in early June 2011. In July 2011, he posted to my question that the the Copperhead was great and ...go for it. A proven expert in only 2 months. Remarkable. And then I heard the backstory.

Unless he didn't make mention of it before, the Copperhead is the only S-D motor he has any experience with, yet, he gives "expert opinions " based on his brief experience, such as the overwhelming superiority of the prop Copperhead uses over all the others, etc. And, although he seems to be an experienced canoe/waterman, in Alaskan terms, he is a cheechako .

I have absolutely no doubt that the Copperhead motors may be great, however planting a 18 hp Vanguard on the same 12 hp frame - a 50% power increase might cause increased stress. Call me crazy, but perhaps there may be teething issues, and necessary development tweaks. One CH18 hp is said to have made it to Alaska this Fall. I look forward to an honest evaluation from an Alaskan who uses one.

I almost bought the Copperhead 18 hp, or rather I was tempted. Two of my friends, though, have the MBminis on their Hudson Bay canoes. One, a 18 hp mini, has has been on 3 years of remote adventures; the other is a 23 hp mini and has completed 2 full seasons of remote trips , on the upper and middle Yukon and even Prince William Sound. Both motors have had zero problems. The props are still in great condition. After a 3 hour ride on the Tanana and Chena Rivers in a Hudson Bay with a MBmini23, I called in my order. I believe I made the correct decision for my rig, at this time. Others may make a different choice.

This just MHO.

You don't have to be so polite, but good post.

Hey Endgame,
Does Anybody in Alaska sell the Mud Buddy motor? I am putting together your exact combo Hudson Bay and MB 23. Probably ran into you or one of your friends parked at the IGA in Delta a few years back.... one look at the combo convinced me... gotta have it.

Why not something like an 18-20' by 36" aluminum boat and a little more hp??

I will admit those canoes are pretty badass if they haul a load like that. Running a ton of boat and cargo hundreds of miles in the opposite direction of civilization takes huevos...

Who told you the Copperhead frames were the same? Unless something has changed, I owned both and the bigger Copperheads definitely had a heavier duty frame than the 12. Even the 18 and 23 don't have exactly the same frame because the 23 has bigger gears and a different belt so the frame is not the same height.

One could also make the argument that no surface drive is going to perform at its optimum (running on the surface) on a displacement hull that never planes. I would probably change prop or gearing if I was going to run it on a displacement hull.

After all of the clutch failure threads, do we really consider clutches to be super-reliable?