So as not to offend some, I have kept the theme this week to something (somewhat) related to mud motors - Water Baptism and what it symbolizes. I hope this certainly can "spark" some discussion as Brooks suggested.

Romans 6:3-11
3 Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death? 4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives. 5 Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was. 6 We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. 7 For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. 8 And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him. 9 We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him. 10 When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God. 11 So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.

So, you may ask...what does this mean? Well, here is my learning.

Baptism symbolizes purification. Water has always been a symbol of purification throughout the Old and New Testaments. A Water Baptism is a symbol of our connection with Jesus Christ. Water Baptism represents two parts – a burial and a resurrection. This is the connection a Water Baptism has with Jesus Christ. When you are water baptized after accepting Jesus Christ into your life, you are essentially burying your old, dead self (when immersed) and resurrecting a new life (when you come back up) through the power of Jesus Christ.

So, why is it important to be Water Baptized? You may have already been saved and have accepted Jesus Christ in your life through Faith. You may have been Baptized as an infant as many (including myself) were. But, you may still struggle with the guilt of sin from your old nature or your past? What you may not realize is you haven’t given your “old nature” or your “old man” a proper burial. It is now "dead." So, the “new nature” or “new man” has never risen and been given the proper platform for your “new man” in Christ to reign and rule in your new life.

Baptism is an external symbol of an inward work of Grace which Christ has done through His resurrection from the dead. It is also a symbol of our commitment to Christ. It is a symbol designed by God to identify a person as a Disciple of Jesus Christ. Just as a wedding ring symbolizes a person is married to spouse, Baptism symbolizes the union of our Faith to Jesus Christ.


And the Congregation said.....

Thanks for that Shamu! Im glad to see people not afraid to post in here.

Rod

It is "The Great Commission." And you never know, it may strike home with somebody one day that is really needing to hear it. It wouldn't be the first time reading about Scripture has changed somebody's life.

I know there is a lot of negativity surrounding this forum. Most of it calling of hypocrisy. None of us are perfect. And, at one time in my life, I was a twenty-something year young guy, drinking, partying, chasing tail, carrying-on, could care less about Religion...so I can sympathize with those people and know where they are coming from. All the more reason to spread His Word. But, I am not ashamed nor afraid of my Faith and will gladly speak about it to anybody that will "read." I am not a "Holier than Though" person....because I certainly have numerous faults. But, I feel I am a better man today because of God and my Faith....not that I am a better man than anybody else.

Just curious you typed some interesting things in your first post. Do you believe one can be saved without baptism? The bible does not teach that baptism is a symbol.

Romans 6:4

Therefore we are buried with him (Jesus) by baptism into death.

Thanks buddy and thanks for getting this together. We need to take heed to what they say about us B/C we are always being watched. The Church is sometimes it's greatest enemy.

Being "saved" and being "baptized" are two different "things."

In being "saved" or "born again," I am just guessing you are referring to giving your life to God. This is when you admit your sins, ask for God's forgiveness, believe in all your heart Jesus died on the cross for your sins and was resurrected, and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior.

Read John 3 which, in a nutshell, states, "You cannot enter the Kingdom of God unless you are born again."

Being Baptized is actually a "rite." It is not so necessarily a symbol but more of symbolization. From what I have learned, you should first give your life to God, then be Baptized to "wash, cleanse, bury"....pick your analogy....your old life away and start a new life following Christ.

How do you explain Mark 16:16? Baptism is very necessary to be saved.

Good word Shamu

Yes, keep it up, never was one for paying attention to the bible, the wife always tries to get me to read it, but i find it more enjoyful to get on here and read peoples favorite or most interesting pieces of the bible. Keep it up guys.

Let me first start by thanking you for this topic and doing what you are doing.

I take any scripture just how it is written then I compare it to any other scriptures that have to do with the topic. That all being said what mark 16:16 says is "He that believe and is baptized shall be saved, He that believe not shall be dammed".

So if I want to be saved I have to believe and be baptized.

Chuck, in Mark 16:16 it says what damns you is not believing. Notice the wording, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
When compared with all scriptures in the New Testament 122 times Bible tells us that salvation is by believing (faith) and about 5 instances you could take scriptures out of context and say it includes baptism.
I believe Acts 10 is one of the clearest scripture on this subject. Acts 10:47-48 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Here we can see that they were saved before baptism. They had the Holy Spirit.
Another point to back this is Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
If your making baptism a "step" or a part of salvation then you just made it a work. Anything you have to do to get to heaven then its no longer a gift. You can't mix grace and works. Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
In Acts 16 Paul answers the questions point blank about salvation. Acts 16:30-32 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Great break down Nate!!

Good stuff y'all. Did that clear er up muddawg?

My Disclaimer - I am by no means an authority or expert on religion. But, I am a follower of Christ and I am glad to have this forum to learn more. So, what you see me post is something I have been taught through my Church, small groups or research on the internet.

So, with that said ... In addition to what Nate has said, I found this on Mark 16:16 this morning.

http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Mark-16-16.html

Ok sorry it took so long to get back with yal, I am working nights right now i just woke up.

Ok lets see if we can study this together. james 2:24 clearly states that it takes both faith and works, can we agree on that?

Now to the jailors conversion in acts 16, the same hour of the night he was baptized.

Matthew 28:19 says to teach then baptize.

Acts 2:37-38 says to repent and be baptized

Mark 16:16 which we talked about earlier. I am not looking at the scripture to learn how to be dammed, I want to be saved so to be saved it says believe and be baptized. All one has to do to be damned is not believe. That person can be baptized and not believe and still be damned.

1 Peter 3:21 baptism doth now save us.

None of these scriptures are taken out of context like was mentioned earlier. God layed out a very simple plan for us to follow: hear, believe, repent, confess, and be baptized. There is scripture for everyone of these steps we cannot just leave out 1 step cause we feel like it. I truly hope I helped.

If i'm not mistaken every sin can be forgiven do to confession and believing in God

Your sins are forgiven when you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and know in all your heart that he died, was buried and was resurrected. The "symoblism" there is that when you accept Jesus' death as dying on the cross for your sins, your sins will be forgiven. He died so that our sins will be forgiven.

Just my thoughts, now...From that point, you have a choice: either to live in sin or to live with as little sin as possible. (NOBODY will be free from sin) But, you have already asked for forgiveness of your sins and been given forgiveness when you accepted Jesus into your life. But the way to live with as little sin as possible is not by "quitting" or "giving up" various sins....addictions, vices, etc. These are simply ways the devil has influence/access to control your life. The way to live with as little sin as possible is to let God control your life. Live more like Christ. If you spend MORE time living like Christ, you will spend LESS time living in sin. You can't simply say, "I'm going to quit drinking, today." Or, Heaven forbid, "I'm going to quit reading mudmotortalk.com." ( - Really...it is like an addiction) Start making more time for God in your life. Pray, read the Bible, listen to K-LOVE or Sirius/XM "The Message." Attend church on a more frequent basis, join a small group or multiple small groups. Create a small group. If I lived back in South LA, this would be a good opportunity to start a "Mudmotor Small Group" to meet monthly or so.

I think we strayed a bit off topic....Imagine that...a thread on MMT getting off topic!

Let's get back on track with the Water Baptism.

I'm sorry didn't know i took it off topic

Point being many things can happen for you if you follow the lord and believe in his ways

The word baptize is not a religious word. It means to be immersed in or to be identified with. I heard it not long ago being used on I think NBC about Mitt Romney saying he had his baptism of fire in New Jersey meaning he was immersed in being scrutinized by the press. Most of the time how it is used today is in reference to water baptism. There are reports of baptisms as far back as Babylonia and in the Hellenistic Jewish culture as far back as 300 years before Christ.
In all baptisms you have three components: baptizer, baptizee, and the baptizing element. There are 7 different baptisms found in the Bible. only two of them have anything to do with water.
1. 1 Cor. 10:2 you have the children of Israel being baptized into Moses. Now they were awful close to water but nobody got wet. In tho baptism God was the baptizer, the children of Israel where the baptizee, and Moses was the element.
2. Luke 12:50 and Matthew 20:22-23 Jesus spoke as His death as a baptism- an immersion into death. Rome or you could say the nation of Israel was the baptizer, Jesus the baptizee, and death the element.
3. Matt. 3:11 Jesus spoke of the baptism of fire (and also the Holy Ghost which I will cover next). That is the flames of Hell will baptize the damned. No one gets wet. God is the baptizer the sinner the baptizee and Hell fire the element.
4. Acts 1:12 speaks of baptism with the Holy Ghost. The baptized are immersed into the Holy Ghost by Jesus himself and this was when they are no where near water. Jesus the baptizer, the Christians the baptizee, and the Holy Ghost the element.
5. The baptism of John the Baptist. Water involved here. John was the baptizer the sinner was the baptizee and water the element.
6. The New Testament baptizing of the new believer. Water involved here. The Christian being the baptizer, the new Christian the baptizee, and water again as the baptizing element.

7. By far the most important. Romans 6,and throughout all of Paul's epistles as in Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. And 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Again the element here is Christ's one body, the one who baptizes is the Holy Spirit. This is a operation of God how we are baptized into the resurrection of Christ. Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
There are two baptisms that take place the moment someone believes in Jesus Christ as their Savior the baptism of the Holy Ghost and the baptism into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. After one believes and has the Holy Spirit they are to follow the Lord in believers baptism.

Now to answer Chuck, I don't believe James 2 when reading the whole chapter is teaching what you are in regards to faith without works is dead. But that vs 18, teaches that real faith produces works and vs 21-23 says that righteousness was imputed to Abraham because he believed. Not because he worked. This goes along with what Jesus taught that ye shall know them by there fruits. If there is no works then you know there is no real faith. We also know there is alot of people in Hell who trusted in their works. Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And Romans 4:5 teaches us not to work but believe when it comes to salvation. Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
The jailer and his family were baptized after they believed and were saved just as the Ethiopian eunuch.
Matthew 28:19 does say to teach then baptize. By teaching is how someone can hear the gospel and respond. Romans 10:13-14 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And as for Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Notice the word for. For means because it is used here the same as we use it when we say " I got a ticket for speeding." It is not a ticket authorizing us to speed it is because we sped.Again there are 122 times that God could have told us to to get baptized for salvaton but He stresses to just believe and anything more we are adding to His complete work in Christ.
As for 1 Peter 3:21 the context starts in verse 18 and in verse 20 we are given a picture of how God had longsuffering for those in Noah's days during the building of the ark. When the time came for God's wrath only 8 chose to enter the ark. And just as those 8 were saved from
the water by entering into the ark (which is a picture of Christ's body)we are saved by entering into the baptism of Christ's body. It is the same "like figure" how the 8 were saved from the water they never got wet.
And I know this is a lengthy post but to put this to rest I will conclude with 1 Corinthians 1.
1 Corinthians 1:14-17 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Paul was glad that he did not water baptize but one family. He went to Corinth to see people saved and start churches by preaching the gospel. He states that Christ did not send him to baptize and if salvation where depending on this then all the time he spent there was in vain.

Thank you Nate that was a very well put together post BUT you are making things way to complicated. Who do you believe the word of God (the Bible) was written for? It was written for you and me and any man. We dont need to go all crazy trying to make it say things to fit what we believe. Just read it and do what it says plain and simple. I for one dont take this stuff lightly so if it only had one passage in the entire book that says baptism is required for salvation I am gonna be baptized plain and simple. You and a whole lot of others hold the same belief and its just not written like that. You dont have to be a bible scholar to understand its not written that way.

Big money religion will have people believe they cant understand unless there preacher tell them what to think. Thats how we have came to so many different types of "churches" its sad really.

Good post Blu

I was reading through this post, and was thinking about what you guys were saying, and agree with alot of the points that were being made. I just wanted to comment on it and say that sometimes the word baptism is used in different context in the bible. I believe that when the bible is talking about baptisim in reference to salvation, it is refering to the baptism of the holy ghost which takes place when a person meets the gospel conditions of salvation that is laid out in Romans Road and John 3 16. I think we do over complicate salvation to the point where we underesimate the power of the Blood.

Here is my reference scripture. Mark 8: I baptize you with[e] water, but he will baptize you with[f] the Holy Spirit.”

The very first thing you typed is what has this whole thread jacked up. It has nothing to do with any mans opinion of what someone should do to be saved. The bible is the inspired word of God and not something we should form opinions about. If you want to be saved what does it say to do?

Wow, I never thought that after 4 years at a school of Biblical Studies, 6 years in the ministry, and a lifelong search for a group of believers who could let God speak without inserting their own opinions, I would find this thread after perusing the NSFW forum!

I cannot help but crack a smile at the things I have heard argued from pulpits across the country, now being argued by a bunch of mudslingers (literally). I do not mean that in a condescending way, because I (as Paul said) am the chief sinner. Still, I would like to throw out something for the consideration of everyone reading this thread:

The Bible as we know it was originally conceived by the Council of Nicea, over 500 years after Jesus walked the earth. 1619 saw the interpretation of the canonized books under the approval of King James. The very words in English which we now try to parse have changed their meanings several times since then, and certainly the original languages of the scrolls had evolved before ever being discovered, and pieced together. To imagine that somehow we have the exact words spoken by God to a disparate group of men, who may or may not have been who they claimed, is rather naive. At best, we have a patchwork quilt that certainly had to be influenced by such men as James and Constantine, not exactly the most Godly men in history. Yet we trust that this book is the complete compendium on a subject that by it's very nature is too infinite to understand, and therefore too infinite to fit into a book written by the hand of men.

I only say that to say this: The nature of our relationship with God is almost purely one of Faith, no matter how we choose to re-interpret the words of the Bible. We who choose to obey the things we find in the Bible are all flawed, and our understanding will be flawed. (Now we see through a glass dimly, we know in part, and prophesy in part) I am pretty sure we must all admit this if we are honest with ourselves.

When we are sick, we go to the doctor. The doctor diagnoses the problem, and tells us what to do. We follow his directions, take the medicine prescribed, and we are healed. We probably cannot explain how it worked to any of our hunting buddies, but if they are sick we can tell them the name of our doctor. If they go see the doctor, and follow his directions, they are also healed.

Jesus is the great physician. No man comes to the Father but through Him. Whether we understand HOW he saves us or not, our obedience is all he needs, because it is ultimately his power that does the work of cleansing our sins. This is the Good News, that none should perish, but all may have the free gift of eternal life!

Good for us to talk about our thoughts, but disastrous for us to think that any of us has it figured out, or that any of the details that we argue about can possibly influence our salvation.

"Neither heights, nor depths, nor principalities, nor powers, none shall separate you from the love of GOD"

"By this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another"
Nothing there about whether you got baptized by water before, or after, or during salvation, or at this church or that one, or any of the other myriad things we divide the words over.