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| To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure http://mudmotortalk.com/mmt_v2/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=17743 |
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| Author: | forever draggin [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
Which of u use collars for indirect pressure and which of u use them for direct pressure? I'm asking because up until Noe I have used a choke chain, which would be direct pressure I'm assuming. U say sit, he doesn't so u pop the chain. He sits. Y would it be any different with an e collar? |
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| Author: | WestEndAngler [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
It isn't any different, I use the collar on both my labs. To enforce commands or correct bad behavior but there was a slow transition from wearing the choker, to the e-collar then removing the collar, I'd zap & pull chain then slowly phased out the chain same effect was felt. |
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| Author: | forever draggin [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
I apologize Coe I been doing soo much reading on e collars I'm a little confused/overwhelmed. I know u must condition him to the collar but, I been reading alot of people talking more about indirect pressure is proper and not direct. I always assumed the proper way to use a collar was to enforce commands that weren't followed. For example if u say come and the dog doesn't then I want to shock him. But what I'm reading is if u say come and the dog doesn't then u would say sit/nick. When sat u would then tell him to come. It doesn't make since to me. Maybe I read something wrong somewhere down the line. Lol I freak out easily |
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| Author: | WestEndAngler [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
Anytime my dog disregards a command while working she gets lit up like a Christmas tree, she knows better but always pushes the boundaries. There's a fine line you can easily break a dog so take it slow. You are getting the dogs attention. Enforcing a simple command that should always be followed (sit) then hitting the nick. I tend to do both until I find what works not only for the dog but for me... Sadie I can do that with Aimee I hit her once & its gameover. I teach SIT = STAY I laugh when I hear people going sit... STAY.... STAY STAY..... STAY... My dog knows a few commands. Sit, Back (blind retrieve), Give & "Sadie", a few hand signals didn't take her too far through that... "Sadie", which is her name, but I can yell "Sally" 50 times in a row and once I hit Sadie she will then take off. I tried to keep it very simple, I also had a professional work with her he wanted to take her all the way to master level but she is my house dog she is fixed so no reason for me to do it other than a proud Dad feeling lol |
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| Author: | forever draggin [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
So u say sit and it doesn't comply. What happens? U say sit/nick her and she sits? What if she doesn't? |
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| Author: | WestEndAngler [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
| Author: | WestEndAngler [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
The idea of using the e-collar on your dog is only good after the dog has good obedience if your dog can't sit on a leash it will not sit on a collar. The collar is an extension of the leash just an imaginary leash and the dog should know that |
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| Author: | forever draggin [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
My dog will sit on the leash 100%! and come and stay. The problem is when the leash is off, he sits when he feels like it and come only if I got food. He knows the choke chain isn't on and that I can't pop em |
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| Author: | forever draggin [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
..and I thought the point of conditioning was so the dog didn't get collar wise. So he has no idea the shock is associated with the collar |
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| Author: | WestEndAngler [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
| Author: | dguidry [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
My two dogs were trained using this method. Apply pressure until he does what you want and then release. Its brutal but works. However, there are dogs that will cower and never recover. |
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| Author: | cbrown [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
| Author: | forever draggin [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
I understand what y'all r saying. My dog knows the commands. I want to use the collar to enforce them when he decides he doesn't want to listen. I been choking him since he was first introduced to sit and come which seems like forever ago although he is only 8 months. Somehow it seems he has gotten used to being choked and don't mind it much. I want a new edge. I hate saying sit twice. While on leash I say it once. If he doesn't sit I pop it and he knows better so he sits. Even off leash I say sit and when I'm close to him if he doesn't I pop his ass with my hand. I want to get him to where if I say sit he does it, period. Same for all other commands. He has been wearing this collar for bout two weeks now. I haven't shocked him yet. |
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| Author: | forever draggin [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
And also I wanted to work with him on low level stimulation to teach him how to turn off the pressure. Coe u do this as well? |
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| Author: | cbrown [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
do you have a healing stick? |
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| Author: | forever draggin [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
No |
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| Author: | WestEndAngler [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
You should work your dog on a short leash & swing a healing stick as y'all walk in front of him as you stop & say sit keep swinging the dog will only hit the stick once before he realizes that zone is "hot" A hot zone is critical to maintain the dog needs to know what is okay & what is not... Keeping consistent is key... I have accidently nicked Sadie while running through the decoys after a downed bird... I stood up & she yelped & came running straight back. I could not get her to go back out through the dekes for the rest of the hunt she associated that area with a "hot" zone & avoided it like the plague! |
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| Author: | johnt_ms [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
The most important thing you need to consider is you are not training your dog with the collar. I would suggest getting one of the many great DVD's on the market that will help you understand the process. If you use the collar wrong you are going to create more problem than you will fix. If you are not going to trial or hunt test your dog The Chris Akin program gundog basics is pretty good. Also suggest consulting a pro who has trained lots of dogs. My trainer is always helping new owners/handlers with their dog. Also something to remember when asking for or reading info on the internet is every dog is different and advice is normally worth what you had to pay for it! |
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| Author: | chocolate head [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
Direct pressure - "sit", dog does not sit, "sit" nick "sit". Direct use of collar for the infraction. Indirect pressure - Left over cast, dog refuses or casts wrong, "sit" nick "sit", recast. Indirect pressure is correcting or forcing on one command(usually a well known one) to improve the performance on another. |
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| Author: | forever draggin [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
But how do u know when to use which one. I'm guessing u would always u indirect pressure while retrieving so he doesn't confuse bumpers r birds as a hot spot? And direct pressure when he knows what u want but just isn't following the command? |
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| Author: | WestEndAngler [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
My trainer brought Sadie through this stage but me learning the commands & when to shock & not was all taught... Good advice from Chocolate Head I worked with Sadie and I have used the collar on my leg & zapped myself I am not about to put something on my dog and not know what it feels like. lowest setting I do not feel it neither does she, 2 I feel it she doesn't (her fur) 3-4 level is where I keep it for Sadie. I use the collar all the time when I pick up the bumper it goes on. One nick usually a session and that's all it takes to keep her arse in line. She is a great dog, a little rusty on casting but heck I don't care. |
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| Author: | chocolate head [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
For me it is not a choice of using a specific type, actually I dont even think about whether it is one or the other. It is used when a correction is needed, either in the field to get the end result you are searching for(casting) or 3 feet away from you when he is not listening to a simple OB command. Once you collar condition him, he will know what the pressure/correction means and how to make it go away. Keep in mind this is over a fairly good stretch of time, not a couple of weeks. I wouldnt worry about a hot spot being created unless the collar pressure is being applied while he is actually picking up the mark. Then I would think there could be some correlation between the bumper/bird and the pressure. |
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| Author: | jbois [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
Choc Head is dead on both post. Most important thing is to make sure the dog is properly collar condition or you will be digging a rather large hole for yourself. |
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| Author: | KwickLabs [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
First of all, the correct use of an e-collar is not synonymous with the term "brutal". Off leash OB should not be a test. It takes months to be able to reliably perform off lead. Not only that, but sharp OB requires constant maintenance. To avoid a collar wise dog, there is only one choice....they wear it most of the time. With continuous repetition of high standards, good OB becomes a habit. If you kind of use the collar once in awhile, the dog is kind of going to have issues when you don't want them. As for collar conditioning, if a dog has not been stick conditioned and used to enforce OB, the transition to an e-collar is less effective. Both are methods of applying pressure in the form of corrections. If the dog is taught the proper response to pressure, handler and dog understand the rules. If the "rules" for teaching are not consistent then one can expect issues. Believe when I say the dog knows why to collar is on and who is running it. Now as for direct pressure vs. indirect pressure, they are vastly different. Assuming a dog knows what sit means and understands how corrections are related to slow responses a "sit/nick/sit" has a clear meaning. It is not an “apply more pressure until they obey "thing". Eventually, "sit" is all that is necessary. The dog should have experienced this sequentially. With a pup "sit get a treat", "sit push on rump get praise", "sit tap on butt with healing stick get praise" and "sit pop choker collar or apply more pressure (tightness) with a pinch collar". All of these initial teaching makes quick, seamless transition to a "nick" with an e-collar. The problems occur when the trainer decides to short-circuit the process (no pun intended) and ignore the obvious. Quality learning requires gradual steps. So now you've got a dog that understands the e-collar with respect to direct pressure on sit, here, down, place and back. He knows that when pressured after a command he has an out - obey the known command. Thru proper training this is not a battle of wills but more of following the rules in a habitual almost automatice manner. Indirect pressure is philosophically very different. Your wife asks you to go down to the mail box and bring her coupons. On the way down the drive, your neighbor stops you to talk. Time flies by. Suddenly your wife walks up behind you, says "Hey!" and "gently" NCIS slaps you on the back of your head. Your first reaction is "What!?", then you remember what you were supposed to. Same thing is true for with a dog. For example, the dog is off-line to a blind. You blow the whistle and the dog sits. A correcting cast is given and the dog continues on his choice of a line and not yours. You, being a competent trainer, decide to give the dog another chance. The concept used is attrition which means wear the dog down by giving him another chance. Usually, with each dog deciding how many chances they get depends on skill levels, the degree of difficulty and your patience. Eventually (my rule is usually two-three chances), I use indirect pressure. Dog is whistle sat, sweated a bit and given a meaningful correction. Dog thinks, "I'm sitting. Can’t be that." But by being distracted from his "desires", the dog is refocused and much more likely to "go get the mail" (take your cast). Now if you end up using indirect pressure too much, it turns into nagging and looses its effectiveness. Also, using it too often means teaching is starting to slip. |
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| Author: | forever draggin [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
Man that's a he'll of a post! Totally put it into perspective, thanx. |
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| Author: | bigdtex [ Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To those with e collars indirect vs direct pressure |
Go and get the Rex Carr tapes to learn more about "stick pressure". Very helpful post, thanks KwickLabs. |
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