Like I said, since obviously you train master hunters, and do it flawlessly, you should offer to train his for him
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| Author: | ARP33# [ Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Marking Issues! |
Hey Guys, Ok, so i have a 2.5 y/o Black male lab, this will be his 2nd full season to hunt. He had a great season and has all the qualities in a lab that you cant teach etc. He s on an e-collar, knows all the basics, hand signals, whistle and has a great drive. The other day we were working on the wagon wheel drill and i decided to get about 2 dozen decoys out in the yard to change it up and that were it started falling apart. I noticed that when i try and mark him he is just looking all around, I cant get him to steady on my mark no matter how many times i say mark, mark mark!!! Ill take a few steps around and get him to heel again and say mark but when i say back, he starts his zig zag through the yard. I Need Advice. This is my second dog and ive brought him as far along as i can learning from my past mistakes on my first lab and watching youtube. We both need to go to school to progress to the next level but before i give Brad at Saltgrass Retrievers a call id like to see what useful info i can get from yall ! Ill appreciate any help i can get.... Thanks |
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| Author: | mizzippi jb [ Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
How are you throwing marks? Got a bird boy? Winger that makes duck or beeping sound before the throw? My suggestion is to get a bird boy with a white shirt and tell him to get the dog's attention with a "hey hey hey" before the throw. Also, make him hold a bird or bumper in his mouth when marking. This seems to keep their attention on the task a little better. Is this a problem that's just popped up? Kinda odd for a 2.5 yr old dog to do that if he hasn't done it in the past. |
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| Author: | AKA Freshwaterkilla [ Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
First of all a mark and a blind is nowhere near the same thing so why are u telling him to mark and then telling him back sounds like u have a dog that u have created alot of mixed signals and is causing him to be bugging all over the place and u should never put decoys around a wagon wheel drill. It is a repetition drill to keep alot of what ur talking about from happening Sent from my iPhone using |
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| Author: | AKA Freshwaterkilla [ Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
| Author: | ARP33# [ Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
I Dont want this to turn into a pissin match... I am no pro first of all, no champ blood line or running trials, just looking for some help. Heel, Sit, Drop, Back when he is on the bumper. Heel, Sit, Drop, Mark, Back when he needs direction. when i say mark his eyes are just scanning the whole area, ( Cant get him to focus on my line) then when i send him he will start the zig zagging. He is having trouble carring over the wagon wheel to a field situation. |
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| Author: | duckduckboom [ Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
Mark means watch the bird fall. You shouldn't have a line on a mark because he should know where the bird is. I am not a trainer or anything near it but I think you may have terminology mixed up. |
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| Author: | KwickLabs [ Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
"The other day we were working on the wagon wheel drill and i decided to get about 2 dozen decoys out in the yard to change it up and that where it started falling apart." Why the decoys? What program suggested it was OK to "change up" a teaching drill? "I noticed that when i try and mark him he is just looking all around, I cant get him to steady on my mark no matter how many times i say mark, mark mark!!!" Wagon wheel is a lining drill. There are no "marks" involved. Generally, the dog is taught to "mark" when someone (or a winger) tosses an object and you send him (on his name) in most cases to pick up the mark. In the wagon wheel drill, depending on what word or words you use to communicate with the dog, the general routine is "heel" (lined up correctly), giving a cue "dead" indicating a blind and usually dropping a hand (in the correct position) to let him know you agree and releasing (send) on "back". There are variations in the sequence, but whatever you use should clearly be different than sending on a "mark" (tossed with an arc to an area of the fall). He knows where that is at because he saw it (generally). In a wagon wheel drill on up to running cold blinds, the dog does not know where it is. The decoys you mentioned did change things up some. However when you are TEACHING, changing up "things" is NOT a good idea unless you are sure the dog understands and you are proofing the new skill. Where did you learn the technique you described in the original post? The following is video of a lining drill with a young dog in early transition. The next photo is a more complex lining drill. The dog is lining well and running cold blinds. The decoys serve as a distraction and tend to proof lining skills.......but only after running many lining drills and well into basic cold blinds. Blind running is taught via a process called transition because each step is a small one. The process in incremental which means each step is designed to make the process seamless. Ideas like "just want to change things up", "experiment or test are not conducive to a seamless process. The indicator that you are off base is the dog becomes confused. Confusion means the trainer has made a mistake. Find someone that can mentor you. edit: "He is having trouble carrying over the wagon wheel to a field situation." All this means is you are moving too fast through transition. It takes several weeks not a few days and a couple of drills. |
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| Author: | AKA Freshwaterkilla [ Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
| Author: | duckduckboom [ Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
Good god I can't understand that run in sentence. I am by no means a English major but a period or 2 would really help. |
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| Author: | duckduckboom [ Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
I really want to understand it but I can't |
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| Author: | bluesky2012 [ Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
| Author: | ARP33# [ Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
this is what i want him to do.. A-------------------------------------------B or A \ \ \ \ \ \ \ B Guess my question should have been "What are some training exercises to help my dog run in a straight line when he cant quiet remember where the last bird is?" |
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| Author: | goosie119 [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
| Author: | KwickLabs [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
"Throwing him lots and lots of singles will help marking ability and memory as well." True statement, but it has nothing to do with the dog's skill level in running cold blinds. My first dog and I learned how to hunt ducks by going and carrying a small bag of rocks. WE GOT BY! Since then, the process of developing a skilled retriever uses a formal training program. Since I always have more than one dog, pups are not pushed into hunting until they are "ready". Ready means completing the following program. They are trained and do not "learn retrieving skills on the job". The "Process" of a Sequential Training Program Basics: Formal Obedience: Here, Heel, Sit, Remote Sit, Kennel Sit to Whistle Force Fetch: Hold Force Fetch: Ear Pinch Force Fetch: CC to Fetch Force Fetch: Walking Fetch Force Fetch: Stick Fetch Simple Casting: 3-handed Casting (remote sit) E-collar conditioning to obedience commands, debolting Collar Fetch Pile Work: Lining and Casting to the Pile (mostly from front/remote sit) Stick to Pile (1 stick send for every 3-5 free sends; 20-100 yds; mostly remote sends) Force to Pile with E-collar (1 nick for every 3 or so free sends; up to 100 yards) Sit to Pile (on the way in and on the way out) Come in from Pile Double T: Teaching the line from baseline to back pile (100 yards) Forcing the double T line, similar to Force to Pile Stopping to Pile Mini, Full, and Double T Swim-by: Teaching and then forcing across water to back pile Stopping, Over Casts, Exits Basic Marking: Singles, 50-100 yards, light cover Hand Deliveries to heel Strong Steadying w/ Honoring Simple Land Doubles Simple conventional De-cheating Simple Water Doubles Moderate-to-Long non-cheating Water Marks Transition: Pattern Blinds Blind Drills Pattern Blinds with Diversions Elementary Cold Land blinds Channel Blinds 8-handed casting (Wagon Wheel) Walking Baseball Wagon Wheel Lining Drill No-No Drill Zig-Zag Drills Chinese Blinds Taught/Permanent Blinds Simple Cold Land Blinds Cheating Singles (Tune-up) Taught/Permanent Water Blinds Simple Cold Water Blinds Diversion Marks: Basic Diversion Mark Drill Taught Blinds with Diversion Marks |
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| Author: | KYmudWE [ Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
I'm no dog trainer, I've had two I trained in the past. They were fair at best. My recent dog is a 2.5 black male, and I've been using Avery's, duck dog basics 1 & 2. He's by no means finished cause my training times aren't as scheduled as they should be, but he's still eager to learn what I ask. Get the vids, you will have the school right at home. Just remember, dogs learn by repetition, be patient, and don't get in a hurry. If he gets confused go back to the point where he wasn't. Also the tighter you work him the more control you have. Simplify the line up with one bumper close to him. Then increase distance, again and again and so forth. Remember small steps, in short burst. He's still got a lot of pup at 2.5, his attention runs out quick |
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| Author: | AKA Freshwaterkilla [ Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
| Author: | KYmudWE [ Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
Your right, I failed to say, the line you want him to take in the direction your hand points. I also agree he needs to extend the distance as fast as the dog understands. But in the round the clock drill, you have multiple bumpers in a circle, and fido needs to get the one you point at. If you start this drill with a few bumpers (less to focus on) and a tight circle, you have more control on the dog. As the dog understands, the circle gets bigger, with more bumpers. To make long marks (fido sees the bird fall) use a buddy, only throw single or doubles (unless your pup has a real good memory) and have the friend increase the distance. |
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| Author: | AKA Freshwaterkilla [ Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
| Author: | AKA Freshwaterkilla [ Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
| Author: | KYmudWE [ Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
Yes, I was only referring to the author using the round the clock drill. In that drill you tell the dog which bumper to get by lining him at heel, and pointing across his head with your hand, and send him by his name, or back depending on if you use white or orange bumpers. It has nothing to do with his marking ability. |
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| Author: | dguidry [ Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
I trained one retriever myself with no electronic collar using the techniques in that book called Water Dog. First real hunt, he retrieved every teal we killed which I think was 24. I was one proud dog owner. Things went downhill from there. Don't know what happened but once he decided enough was enough, that was it and no matter how loud I screamed and cursed he wouldn't mark or retrieve. I guess it was because I didn't have the time to reinforce commands frequently enough to make a difference. The next two dogs were professionally trained. The first turned out ok, but my current lab, Rex, is a monster at retrieving. Better get out of the way if there's a duck within 200 yards cause he'll knock you down to get there. The most important lesson I learned from having these dogs is if you don't have the time to train just about everyday, don't try. You will be doing yourself, the dog, and your hunting partners a disservice. |
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| Author: | AKA Freshwaterkilla [ Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
| Author: | KYmudWE [ Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
Obviously you should train his dog, for free. The author asked for suggestions on training his dog. Mine was to get the videos, and it has turn in to a discussion with you on training. I think if the owner has the time, the videos will help. |
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| Author: | AKA Freshwaterkilla [ Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
| Author: | AKA Freshwaterkilla [ Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
| Author: | KYmudWE [ Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
My someone is Mr right, and gets a little pissy! |
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| Author: | KYmudWE [ Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
Like I said, since obviously you train master hunters, and do it flawlessly, you should offer to train his for him
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| Author: | AKA Freshwaterkilla [ Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
| Author: | bluesky2012 [ Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
| Author: | Diggem Out [ Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marking Issues! |
ARP33: I strongly suggest getting on a training program. A book!!! There are many very good programs to choose from. Most all the programs I prefer are based off of the Rex Carr method of turning off pressure. Mike Lardy is great stuff but can be confusing to many young trainers. Although I'm not fond of the guy, Evan Graham Smartwork vol 1 is easy to understand and well written. To achieve success training dogs, it is a step by step process which Kwik Labs did an excellent job laying out. If step B is not solid DO NOT move on to C. This is glossing over an important concept which invaribly creates holes in the dog's training. In reading your post I'm guessing there are many, many holes. Get a good book, start from the beginning and learn the game. IMO videos are nice fillins, I own a bunch, but I suggest a book and strongly recommend keeping a log book on your dog's progress. Also, find you a training group and start showing up. They always need bird throwers and you will learn A LOT!! Good luck. |
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