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I finally finished reading all of this! WOW! I will be the first to admit, this country is definitely on a downhill slide (or avalanche?)

Ranger- you my friend, are a Bible citing machine! Awesome!

I will side with Ranger on this issue. True marriage, from its roots in the Bible, is a covenant between a man and a woman, in the presence of God. True marriage is not a civil union or contract between two people of the same sex or between two people of opposite sex. Let me repeat...marriage is a covenant - NOT a contract. The DOMA should be written as such and passed into law.

Now, before somebody starts accusing me of trying to be "Holier than thou" or something similar, YES - I have been divorced and I am remarried. Had I known then what I know now, I would probably still be divorced. Matthew 19:9 reads, "And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery—unless his wife has been unfaithful.” Unfaithfulness is a hard sin to forgive. But, I have long since forgiven my trespassers and moved on with my life.

The actual English word, "marriage" did not appear until the 13th century. So, when you read the actual word marriage or marry in the Bible, you are more than likely reading a translation of the word form "gamos." The form "gamisko" literally translates into "to espouse a daughter to a husband." That in and of itself is all the definition I need to convince me marriage IS between a woman and a man.

Jesus spoke in Matthew 19:4-6 when the Pharisees were trying to trap him with questions about marriage and the law of Moses, “Haven’t you read the Scriptures?” Jesus replied. “They record that from the beginning ‘God made them male and female.’” And he said, “‘This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.’ Since they are no longer two but one, let no one split apart what God has joined together.”

Was it just me or did anybody else catch the part about the MAN joined to his WIFE? This phrase is used FIVE times in the Bible! The part where Jesus said, "in the beginning" refers to Genesis.

God's model for marriage started in Genesis with Adam and Eve.
Genesis 2:18-24 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper who is just right for him.” So the Lord God formed from the ground all the wild animals and all the birds of the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would call them, and the man chose a name for each one. He gave names to all the livestock, all the birds of the sky, and all the wild animals. But still there was no helper just right for him. So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep. While the man slept, the Lord God took out one of the man’s ribs and closed up the opening. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib, and he brought her to the man. “At last!” the man exclaimed.“This one is bone from my bone,and flesh from my flesh! She will be called ‘woman,’ because she was taken from ‘man.’” This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one. (There it is, again!)

Take note where God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone." Throughout Genesis Chapter 1, God surveyed his work and pronounced it "good" when he was done. This was the first time God said something in His creation was not good. Also, take note here, remember how God created man? Dust from the ground. How did He create woman? From the man. This represents the bond between a man and a woman. I know the next argument...and the answer is NO. Dirt from dirt does not represent a man-man relationship. Besides, how would you get a woman-woman relationship?

I know some of you are probably getting excited about "the two are united into one" and "the two shall become one flesh." Sure, this represents the sexual union between a man and woman. But, it also represents a relational and emotional oneness as well. Everybody has three God-given inner needs - the needs for love, for security, and for significance. We are all created to love. Yet, God designed the husband to have a greater need for significance and the wife with the unique deeper need for security. Basically, two men will not fulfill the need in one another for significance. There will still be the need for significance - each needing it, neither giving it. Two women will not fulfill the inner need in one another for security in the same way. They will be at odds for those needs from the opposite. A man and a woman in marriage are naturally made to meet their spouses's need.

I can go on and on about this and quote scripture after scripture about man and woman, husband and wife; and how God would want their marriage to be. I think Ranger is doing a far better job than I could, though. He has my vote for President.


Sent using Morse Code from my not so smart phone.

Thanks for the compliment, but Ranger aint so much as qualified to be the county dog catcher.

I'm just waiting for a brother and sister to wanna get married now..

So is heterosexual sodomy as bad as homosexual in gods eyes? What does the ot or nt say about heterosexual perversions if anything? Are those more or less destructive to a nation than the homosexual perversions?

sent by carrier pigeon...don't shoot it!!!!

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Paleo,

I am glad to see you are still reading and quoting the Bible. Even though you are still taking things out of context, you are coming along quite nicely. Our prayers for you must be working.

To put the rest of the "judge not" into context...here is the full text version:

From Matthew Chapter 7:1-2
“Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. 2 For you will be treated as you treat others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged.

Ranger, others and myself are judging by the same standard...the Bible. Judge my life by the Bible as it pertains to homosexuality. I welcome the invite.

I may have to start a new "Prayers for Idacraw" thread. Not a bad idea. God bless you, Paleo.

Idacraw

Let us pick off these questions one at a time for you.

In your first post, you asked where in the New Testament are we told that homosexuality is a sin. For starters, jump to Romans chapter one, cruise down to verse 24, then check out 26 and 27.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1:9).The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

We no longer burn sacrifice on an alter. Jesus was the last and perfect sacrifice ,and paid the price for all sins. It is up to you to accept that sacrifice

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7.In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?


Back then, it wasn't uncommon for poor families to give their children up to slavery. Slavery wasn't as bad as we think of it today. Instead of families letting their children starve or die from sickness, they would send them to be maids or farmers under a boss so that they could receive food, water, shelter, clothing, income, and more. These "slaves" were treated more like servants or workers contract rather than our defining of slaves. Slaves then were more like an indentured servant, and they were released in seven years. I have friends that are old, that live in the south, that during the depression were lent out to other farmers to work, but the parents kept the money.


c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Lev.15:19-24).The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.


If your wife is anything like mine, it would be best to avoid her during that time. Might be a good time to go hunting. And yes, it was rotten to be a woman in those days before we had modern plumbing and sanitary products. That passage in no way equates to women being hated in the Bible. In Cherokee culture, women on their periods had to go to live separately from their people in a hut outside the village. Do you assume that the Cherokee also hated women?

d) Lev.25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?



Ask a democrat that question. They feel it wrong to make poor white or poor blacks to do such work as landscaping, picking fruit and vegetables, low level construction jobs, but the see nothing wrong with bringing Mexicans here to do it. Also remember back then, you could only keep a slave for six years, and turned him lose on the seventh. I would compare it to an enlistment in the Army.

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

Are you Jewish? We do not keep the Sabbath. After the death, burial, and resurrection, we worship on Sunday. Where I come from, we do not work on that day, but we are under grace now, and not the law. Remember that they brought a woman to Jesus for adultery, and he did not let them stone her, but sent her away, and told her (sin no more). Some of the laws you read in the Old testament were laws for the children of Israel. They were God’s chosen people, and were a people set a part for him with laws that applied to them.


f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev.11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Yes, I can settle it easily. In the book of Act (new testament), the food restrictions were lifted. We Christians eat shell fish, pork and such. Homosexually is clearly defined in the first chapter of the book of Romans, and we are told that it leads to being a reprobate.

g) Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?


The priests were were from the Tribe of Levi, and there were many rules that applied to them in the Old Testament, and how they were to conduct worship. Once again, we are now under grace. You do not need a priest, you are your own priest once you are saved, and you have a direct communication with God. So, regardless if you have on your glasses, your contacts, had laser surgery, or are blind, you can take your problems directly to God. His son provided that for you if you accept it.




h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?


Those were standards for the Children of Israel prior to New Testament. You are not a Jew, so go get a Mohawk if it pleases you.



i) I know from Lev.11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

Pig skin is a slang term for a football. Footballs are actually made of cow hide, so you are safe. Go long, and I will hit you across the middle.

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread cotton/polyester blend. He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev.24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)


I think I mentioned that we stopped the stoning process in the New Testament. Jesus did that himself. Cursing is still a violation of the ten commandments (taking God’s name in vain). You can let God deal with him though, as he is better at convicting man’s hear than we are. I do a little farming, and I find it works better to stick with one crop per field. I do have a small garden though where I mix up my peppers and tomatoes.
These and other prohibitions were designed to forbid the Israelites to engage in fertility cult practices of the Canaanites. The Canaanites believed in sympathetic magic, the idea that symbolic actions can influence the gods and nature…. Mixing animal breeds, seeds, or materials was thought to “marry” them” so as magically to produce “offspring,” that is, agricultural bounty in the future.

Some biblical commands are not so culture- and context-dependent. We can recognize them by how frequently and in how many different contexts they are presented, and by the strength of their connection to identifiable culture-transcending principles. By those tests, Leviticus 19:19 is clearly tied to one time and one place, unlike commands relating to (for example) love for God and neighbor, honesty, integrity, and sexual behavior.

An important principle for understanding how the OT Law applies to Christians in the New Covenant, inaugurated by Jesus Christ’s sacrificial death and resurrection, is that we are now under grace. Only those aspects of the Old Covenant Laws that are reaffirmed in the New Covenant are binding on Christians – basically this comes down to the moral and ethical issues derived from the Ten Commandments and the two greatest laws I mentioned above. NT books like Romans and Hebrews spell this out in more detail.

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Idacraw - you by far have some of the best questions and comments on MMT. Glad to see you back on here more regularly.

Thanks

Idacraw shines when he can talk science.

Those questions are a joke of sorts that atheists post here and yonder on the Web.

I will be the first to admit that there is plenty in the Bible that I do not understand. I have enough though just trying to abide by what I do understand. The ten commandments are enough to keep most of us busy.

This I will say, there is no other book like it. The more you learn, the more you realize that you do not know. It is a supernatural book, and no other book compares.

Ranger and Blue.

If you owned a grocery store, would you allow gays to shop at your store? What if you owned a hotel, would you let gays stay at your hotel? What would you do if all of a sudden, everyone that had booked your hotel on line was a bunch of gays in for some event? What about letting gays eat in your restaurant?

I want to see where are your limits of how you deal with gays.

What if someone gay wanted to go to your church, maybe they want to get saved, would you shake their hands before you know they were saved.

It seems that every messenger in the Bible, except for Jesus, were flawed. David was very flawed and sinful. You are a messenger. But are you any less sinful than a person that is gay? Are gay people more sinful than us straight people?

My own personal view is that I do not mind dealing with gays. However, I also do not want to do parties for them where there is drinking and all that. I am not against drinking, but they all get pretty wild when they do. I do not like to see gays kissing and hugging all over each other.

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Wow....After reading the majority of this thread only one scripture can come to mind.

Math. 7:13-14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Read it!!! I can sodomize my wife im guessing as long as she is not unclean..... I didn't get the part about passing your seed through mordoc or whatever...... but sodomy is ok for the straight folk....

sent by carrier pigeon...don't shoot it!!!!

I've figured it out. The sex is the sin. A civil union is not a permission slip for sex. Its a contract for shared responsibilities. So therefore civil union is not immoral or an abomination. Now the sin would come into play in the consecration of the union.

sent by carrier pigeon...don't shoot it!!!!

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Its the sex that's the sin not the contractual agreement.... I've found no where the bible denies a contract between a man and another man. So again, its the sex that's the sin.

sent by carrier pigeon...don't shoot it!!!!

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Abortion is just a social program to cull the ignorant.

sent by carrier pigeon...don't shoot it!!!!

I am against abortion but my underlying racist tendencies allow me to tolerate it due to the % of minority mothers killing their children.

sent by carrier pigeon...don't shoot it!!!!

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who owns marriage? is it a concept that only appears in christianity? Is it wholly religious? What if budhists want to get married...they are active idol worshippers, worshipping many gods which is wicked. and i dont believe there are levels of sin. i think sin is sin and equally bad. So my question is, should we allow openly wicked people to marry? your topic is gay marriage and i think that civil union is an alternative to marriage and has a place in this discussion. Also since your wish is to deny those that are wicked in the eyes of the lord a legal partnership as well as not allow them to marry then it should include all those are wicked........

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i have never disguised the fact i think a civil union is an alternative to marriage....so is common law marriage.....and shacking up......i guess .... so you will let an idol worshipping wicked person marry but not a ass worshipping wicked person?????