is it really important to ff a dog if all you want is a meat dog?

I don't have a ton of experience in this. However I did just have my first dog trained and I'm still working with him. He is an excellent retriever and has never been forced fetched. So based on my experience (limited), I would say no.

If all you want is the normal crappy lab that people have that breaks on shot, sometimes retrieves a mark, and that’s about it, then no. But then again, most people have never had or seen a performance dog and don’t know what they are missing.

If you plan on following any mainstream method of training to any semi advanced level and want to have a dog that reliably retrieves, and is able to run blinds, then yes, it is an essential building block.

The overwhelming majority of mainstream training methods follow the care based methodology from way back and have morphed into Stawski, Lardy, and Aiken’s methods that probably 98% of pros and serious amateurs today follow with great success. All of those use force fetch as a foundation prior to transition work.



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I think essential is a strong word here. I think it is going to vary from dog to dog or breed to breed. My English lab was very easy to train without Force fetching. It may be his calm demeanor . He does not break on a shot. HE doesn't even flinch. He won't budge until you tell him to.
he's well on his way to be a great blind retrieving dog. Will he be an absolute Pro? Probably not. He does however impress every other Hunter who have been training dogs that he is come across.

I think essential is a strong word here. I think it is going to vary from dog to dog or breed to breed. My English lab was very easy to train without Force fetching. It may be his calm demeanor . He does not break on a shot. HE doesn't even flinch. He won't budge until you tell him to.
he's well on his way to be a great blind retrieving dog. Will he be an absolute Pro? Probably not. He does however impress every other Hunter who have been training dogs that he is come across.

Maybe I am missing the point from the original question. From what I can tell it is not a question as to whether a dog should be forced fetched to be a champion or professional dog. The question is asking if you can have a basic bird retrieving dog without force fetching. If that is the intent of the original question then I stand by my statement that you would not need to force fetch that dog.

You are correct. I did mention that I have limited experience in this. However in my teens which was quite some time back I’ve trained two English setters For upland bird hunting. One not such a good dog. The first was very well-trained dog and never force fetched, and she did everything I needed her to do. Now I am currently finishing up my English lab. He hasis never been Force fetched. I am sure that this season he will do a remarkable job. I live where we hunt and I work with him on the water several times a week. He finds frozen ducks, and decoys every time even when I placed them without him knowing. I do not intend to enter him into competitions. Not something I am interested in. But I do intend to hunt very frequently with him and I’m very confident at this stage that he is going to perform well. He’s also good at sitting and going in his kennel. That alone apparently makes him not garbage.

As far as English lab versus American lab. I do disagree that it does not make a difference. English labs tend to be much more calm compared to the American labs. This does make a difference when training.

Going back to the original question. I interpret it to be that person asking wants a basic retrieving dog. If I am wrong and he wants the dog to be a competition level professional dog then perhaps you were correct about force fetching being essential.

We can disagree about the English vs American lab issue but I’ve seen far more English that’s lab are a dud than equal bloodlines from American. The “calmer” piece does not factor in at all.

As for a basic gun dog, no I still stand by my assertion, regardless of the level. One of the MOST important factors in determining success is the quality of program that OP chooses. American mainstream methods are by far the most comprehensive, readily available, and easy to follow, and would be most beneficial for the OP which in turns gives him the highest % odds of a successful duck dog regardless of level it is trained to. There just aren’t as comprehensive or standardized methods available for the other methods, which significantly impedes success of an entry level trainer.


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I would say that if you are like the majority of duck hunters that don't give a damn about hunt tests and titles that there is no need to force fetch a dog.
One of the dogs I hunt with has never had any other training besides playing fetch with a tennis ball. The dog lays on the floor of the boat until it is called upon to make retrieves. Every single retrieve I have ever seen this dog make has been a blind retrieve. We simply point him in the right direction and he goes and finds the ducks.
When this dog isn't hunting he is laying on my buddy's sofa.
As far as British vs. American breeding standards, from the dogs I have been around I would rather a dog that comes from British standard breeding. They tend to be much calmer dogs and easily trained. The American standard breed dogs I have been exposed to were much more high strung.
Calmer does play a factor when you are looking for a dog that will be a hunting partner but also a family pet. Not everyone that owns a lab wants a hunt test dog.

No it doesn’t. I’d guarantee my performance bred American lab is probably the most calm and quiet lab you’ve ever seen in the house or in the blind, but that is because he is trained to do so, not because he is just lazy. On the other side though, he has drive which makes him far more trainable than a lazy dog which is essential for transition and beyond.

I’ve seen very few American labs that are not easily able to be very calm and dead silent in the blind and in the house, most people just flat out can’t train a dog. I have both a performance pedigree lab and GSP in my house, neither have ever barked, and neither do anything but lay around. That’s not dumb luck, that’s discipline.

What happens when you buy into the B.S. Milner “British lab” marketing and you get a high energy one? Send it back? No, you learn to actually train a dog......

And I don’t run hunt tests either, but I have trained with easily 200+ labs both British and American.

On the other side, I’ve seen far too many British labs that have zero drive. Those same dogs may be fine in the house, but they are garbage at hunting. You can always find anecdotal evidence to the contrary but the trend I, as well as MANY pros I’ve trained with agree to that as a norm.


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Still, neither of you have explained WHY you don’t need to force fetch, other than simply saying you don’t need to.

What does force fetch do, and why would you not need it to train to whatever your standard is?

Still have not heard either of you be able to articulate that point likely because you don’t know how to train a dog nor understand why or where it falls into their training pipeline.


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You're correct that I am not a pro and that I do not train dogs for a living. I actually don't even have a retriever at the moment because I work offshore and wouldn't be able to spend the amount of time it takes to properly train a dog because I refuse to pay someone else the ridiculous amount of money that the majority of trainers charge.

I have trained dogs in the past though and I firmly believe that it is not necessary to force fetch train a dog.
Why? Because I simply don't care to have a top notch dog that everyone is jealous of. All I want is a dog that will retrieve ducks and doesn't destroy everything in my house.

This is the issue with dog training discussions. Few people understand training, and everyone gets emotionally invested because they think it’s an attack on their dog or their ability to train.

I’d like to have a factual (non-anecdotal) discussion about this. That’s why I keep asking those of you who disagree to actually provide why FF is used, and what is gained or lost with the choice to or not to FF.


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Since you’ve been a dick about this I’ll jump down to your level for a moment. The op asked if it was necessary for a meat dog. Which it isn’t. There are many dogs out there that have owners who are 110% pleased with the fact that the dogs retrieves every duck that they shoot. Hell we have a guy on our lease that puts a hand full of rocks in the boat to throw for his dogs but guess what the dumbass dog gets every damn duck.
So basically what I’m saying is the hell with your opinion because that’s all it is.
Plan and simple force fetch is not always necessary for every dog.

You've got me all fucked up man. I'm not mad and my panties ain't in a bunch in fact I prefer going commando. You said it was necessary to have a good dog. Myself and others have said it isn't.
Every dog is different and that means that what works for one dog either may not work or won't be necessary for another.
Yet here you are still demanding that you can't have a "good" dog without force fetch being a part of the training.

You tend to come off as the college grad engineer type that knows every damn thing because you read it in a book that said the only way something can be good is if its done a certain way. Get some real world experience and come out from behind your book and you would realize that there are many different ways to many different things effectively.

Having hunted with blueskys dog, I can say only good things. And dispite this I continue to argue why I want a Boykin, but he explains what difference I can expect.This is because i have only hunted with labs, buddies have kennels etc. What i can say if it's a gun dog Ff is in the dog's tool bag. To the OP I will say you said good gun dog, that description is different to different people. The pros will demand ff, does that mean they are wrong too? Blue does not in any means state he is a pro, he is knowledgeable on the subject, but not overbearing. You asked for an opinion, he gave you his, take it or leave it.

In the end it is your dog, however it is up to, to give the dog your best for it to do its job effectively.

If you get butthurt because I refer to a gun dog as a tool, oh well...

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If all you want is the normal crappy lab that people have that breaks on shot, sometimes retrieves a mark, and that’s about it, then no. But then again, most people have never had or seen a performance dog and don’t know what they are missing.

If you plan on following any mainstream method of training to any semi advanced level and want to have a dog that reliably retrieves, and is able to run blinds, then yes, it is an essential building block.

Ok these were your words not mine. Just so you know I never said it was horrible or couldn't be useful. I said it isn't necessary for all dogs. Especially meat dogs that will never see any type of activity besides being a tool used to keep us from having to retrieve our own ducks and sleeping on the sofa.

I've never been one to follow anything that is mainstream, but to each their own. Follow whatever practice you want but to say that it has to be done in order to have a good retriever is simply ignorant.

You’re a tool though.

Edit to add that was meant for dmax, because he is.

Ok I'll explain my definition of normal.
A dog that when sent out on a retrieve it actually comes back with the duck.
A dog that when sitting in the blind doesn't chew up my shit, constantly walk around, or bark at black birds and seagulls when they fly by.
A dog that will leave on a direction that it is pointed in and listen to either verbal or whistle commands during a retrieve.
Hell I don't even mind throwing rocks every now and then.

What makes a crappy dog for me.
A dog that is high strung and has more energy than a room full of meth heads.
A dog that chews everything in sight.
A dog that shits in my house or pisses in the blind.

Look I'm sure that FF has worked great for you, but to say that it is required for all dogs to be good is just simply not a true statement. The op is wanting a meat dog not a champion.

And if he wants a meat dog at any level, his best bet is to follow any one of the 3 aforementioned mainstream programs (which use FF early on) to increase his odds of having a good dog. Not sure how else to say that. Even if he just wants a dog that is steady and does singles, there is still a proven high % success rate to get there. Don’t reinvent the wheel and introduce risk!

I will add this though, it is dangerous for a dog to release a cripple before it is in the hand of the owner. That leads to a dog chasing a crip around guns in a boat or blind. Force fetch does help prevent that.

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Well blue you are coming along. You went from saying it is essential to saying it is the best bet.

I knew you'd see it my way!

Look Blue I tell you what, since I personally am without a dog right now you can bring your dog over to our lease this season for a few hunts and you can try to prove to me that it is a must to FF.
I'm getting tired of having to retrieve my own ducks anyway!

A tool with a purpose! Smashing shit haha

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I can bring my nonforce fetched dog. That is if I can get his lazy ass off the couch!

We hunt in Dulac. It ain't the greatest place but you are damn near guaranteed to get your limit of dogris every trip!
As far as food goes, its always good. I didn't get 260lbs by accident. In fact we have a blind on our lease that is basically built for cooking and relaxing. It was built inside of a patch of rosos.