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 Vangard 23 or Kohler 25 
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Post Vangard 23 or Kohler 25
I've been on here for a couple weeks learning a lot about v-twin small engines. Some of the old drag race big block chevy experience applies but not all.

I'm thinking about building my own surface drive for a 16x50 custom flat bottom. Just a basic rig with a front hunt deck 9 gallon aluminum tank up front, 2 rear seat pods and flooring. Round or tripple chine with rear hunt deck like the Excel F4.

I want to keep the motor under 25hp to run the WMA's in Arkansas.

I'm torn between a 23 Vangard and a 25 Kohler.
The Kohler is quite a bit heavier than the Vangard. So 1 up for the briggs. I hear the 23's make a lot of power and can be built with easy to get parts +2 for the briggs. I think the reason the 23 Vangard is a good MM is due to it's longer stroke and smaller bore when compaired to the Kohler. I know in my last drag motor when I stroked it to 4.5 that motor came alive bigtime. So +3 for the Briggs.
So now for the Kohler, much more stout and solid block than the briggs +1. Same basic engine as the 27hp Kohler just smaller bore. I love the 27hp Kohler on my Skag mower with 1540 hours on it and no mechanical problems. +2 I'm very knowledgeable on the Kohler engines and maintance on them +3. The Kohler has 2 more hp and more torque at a lower RPM than the briggs +4

Even with this research and searching on this board I wanted to pick your brains. Personal opinions are fine but pelase state facts as to why you feel 1 is better than the other. The 2 things that are pulling me to the briggs is the lighter weight and I've heard folks say you can make them scream. However the Kohler can be resleaved to a 27 and modded also, no one but me and the machinest would ever know.

So hopefully without starting a pissing match help me weigh the facts folks.

Thanks,

Russ
NNow


Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:12 am
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Post Re: Vangard 23 or Kohler 25
While you can get performance parts for Kohler on the lawn tractor racing sites, you will need to modify most of em for our application. You can get the parts for the Briggs readily available & already designed for what we're doing alot easier.

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Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:56 am
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Post Re: Vangard 23 or Kohler 25
It's pretty easy to stroke the 25. Just buy the crank set up for the 30 motor. Want to say the whole get up with pistons and everything can be had on ebay for around 300 bucks. Add the heads along with it, and you have a reliable 30hp motor. The carb on the 30 is a two barrel, but not really any better than the single barrel downdraft carb if you are running a horizontal motor.

You can get a cam from EVT. That is the only thing really specific to a MM application. Any of the other tractor stuff is pretty much directly compatible. EVT has a Mikuni set up as well. Pretty much everything else they use on the tractors would work for us, heads, pistons, rods, cranks, carbs, etc. Exhaust would really be the only thing hard to come by on the kohlers for us. I do happen to know where one of those can be had though. :mrgreen:

I don't have any personal experience with the 23, but they do seem to take to the mods well. BPS has an exhaust and a mikuni set up for them. Hoyt and EVT both have cams for them. I'm sure either of them could get you pistons and whatnot as well.

In my opinion they are both good motors, but I believe the kohler is a better built machine. The kohler is a bit heavier, but it's the smallest engine on that frame where the 23 is the largest on it's frame. The kohler 25 is the same block up to the 30 hp motor. The 25 briggs weighs waaaay more than the 25 kohler, but again it is the smallest engine on the same block as the 35/36. If you don't mind the weight, are already planning on modding, and want the engine you can get the most out of, that may be worth looking in to. Buy a 25 briggs, swap to the 35/36 crank, rods, pistons, and carb, then add a cam and exhaust, and you've got a hell of a lil motor with a 25hp badge on it... If that is just too much weight, then the choice would be up to you. I would prefer the 25 kohler if the big block briggs is out of the question...


Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:37 am
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Post Re: Vangard 23 or Kohler 25
The Briggs has a back up pull start, but if you mod it there is prolly too much compression to use it.

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Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:36 pm
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Post Re: Vangard 23 or Kohler 25
i got the 23 brigg because of the pull start havent modified yet but I been dead batteried twice in my sons black death Ill take my chances with the 23. got a jump pack now, but it is just something else to keep up with and gets in the way choose recoil also


Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:53 pm
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Post Re: Vangard 23 or Kohler 25
CB good discussion. FYI I used to live off Dalrock in Rowlett, now over in Heath.

TC can you elaborate more on what would have to be nodded from the tractor market so parts would apply to a mm?


Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:33 am
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Post Re: Vangard 23 or Kohler 25
The cam is the only thing you would really want to be different when talking about tractor parts. Their cam's are built for high rev operation. EVT has a grind for our application, so if you want to throw a cam in, you do have that option.

Everything else you would want to do, is pretty much compatible. Only other stuff you would really want would be pistons, rods, heads, maybe valves and roller rockers. They have a few carb options, and you also have the mikuni option if you go through EVT. Most of the stuff like flywheels and crank trigger ignitions are not really necessary for our application and some of that stuff would need some modification to work for us. They do a lot more cutting weight and balancing for what they are doing. We are only turning +-4500 rpms and I just don't see that stuff being very necessary.

Biggest problem you will have on the kohler's, is there is not a whole lot of guys who have really messed with them. With the big block briggs, everyone has them and you know what to buy and have a pretty good idea what you will get in return. There is a lot less of the modded Kohler MM's around, and you are just kinda gonna have to do what you want to do with a lot less direction. It is hard to talk to the tractor guys about what you want because they are building 8-10k rpm motors. We are building 4-5k rpm motors and it's a different ball game. Julian at midwest supercub is very knowledgeable and will do his best to help you out. I had the best luck with them and with EVT.


Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:42 am
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Post Re: Vangard 23 or Kohler 25

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Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:22 am
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Post Re: Vangard 23 or Kohler 25
Clay pretty much summed it up. He has alot more experience with the Kohler than I do.

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Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:05 am
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